26.2 Mental Coaching in Pro Golf with "Clever Trevor" Jones, ACT therapist

[00:00:00] So we're bringing stuff out of the blind spots. We're getting more connected to it. We're building willingness, right? And then the final one is engaging. Okay, what does a great swing feel like? I'm back on the tee. I've got all these people, you know, with these preconceived ideas of this guy's a one handicapper and this ball could go between his legs. And they're all getting ready to film this. And you know, this is going to be great. He's not a real one handicap. Did you get that handicap from the Donald Trump kind of school of golf kind of thing, right?

[00:00:31] Somebody get this guy some help.

[00:00:41] Disclaimer, this podcast is for informational purposes only. The information provided in this podcast and related materials are meant only to educate. This information is not intended as a substitute for professional medical advice. While I am a medical doctor and many of my guests have extensive medical training and experience, nothing stated in this podcast nor materials related to this podcast, including recommended websites, texts, graphics, images, or any other materials should be treated as a substitute for professional medical or psychological advice, diagnosis, or treatment. All listeners should consult with a medical professional, licensed mental health provider, or other healthcare provider if seeking medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Or put more simply, If you need help like this guy, call your own doctor.

[00:01:06] Another specific example you've talked about that actually was very reinforcing for me when I heard you talk about it. I hadn't thought about it that way. But talking about Tiger at Eastlake, the tour championship, walking up 18. I think he hadn't won in a while. It was a very, very big tournament.

[00:01:24] And he's got a big tournament. And he's got a big tournament. And he's got a big tournament. And he's got a one or two stroke lead and he's in the bunker hitting his third shot on a par five. And after the round, the reporter had asked him, did you know that you had won it? You know, going into that shot. And he says, well, no, I could have shanked it out of bounds.

[00:01:40] So Tiger is sitting there over that shot. And he has the thought, I could shank this out of bounds. And the natural, the very kind of intuitive reaction for us as humans is to do that. No, no, no, no, no. I can't think about that right now. It might make it more likely.

[00:02:00] Right. And instead of that, Tiger put it right there. And he said, maybe I should hit a little bit more behind the ball to make sure that I don't go screaming into the out of bounds. And he used that thought, maybe did his own form of defusing that thought. And then he incorporated that thought into his process on that shot.

[00:02:24] You know, it was such a beautiful moment. And you do find them, you know, we tend to, if you look through transcripts, you listen closely to interviews, but we very often get caught in the trap of comparing our insides to other people's outsides. Yeah. Well, you could take words, you know, stride down the fairway and all those thousands of people behind him. And, you know, the guy's got a two shot lead and the guy's won, you know, 14 majors at this point.

[00:02:49] And he was kind of unbeatable. And it's like, whoa, how must he be feeling? He must be like super confident. And he's got all this, you know, and it's bullshit. It's effing bullshit. The guys there stood behind the bunker thinking, what if they thin this ball out of bounds? He's having that thought. And here's the crucial piece. And he's willing to have that because he recognizes that those thoughts can be functional.

[00:03:17] Those thoughts can serve the next shot, which in this case, as you so perfectly described, take a little bit more sense. Awesome. There's great utility in there. So sometimes I say this to clients, like they're talking about all these places they're struggling and this kind of anxiety. And these kind of thoughts show up and they self-doubt, you know, they can. And I say to them, do you know what this makes you? Do you know what this makes you? All this self-doubt, all this anxiousness, all this struggle.

[00:03:47] Do you know what this makes you? And they're like, I don't know. It makes you human. It makes you human. And just that, the transformative effects of returning to like, we've all got that capital I. And in everybody from the Tiger Woods to Nadal to the great American football players, basketball, whatever, right? Do you mind if we just do something now that might illustrate this? That'd be like a cool thing to do.

[00:04:17] Just do me a favor and just hold up your left hand. How did you know? How did you know which hand to hold up? Learned experience. But how did you know to hold up that hand? It's this learning history. But crucially, you only know left in relation to right. I love this point. I love this. Absolutely love this point. So if I kind of roll into this, we learn things in relations.

[00:04:47] Okay? So if I say hot, cold. If I say black, white. If I say confident, self-doubt. You only know what confidence is in relation to your experience of not being confident, i.e. self-doubt. So they don't come as one. Confidence isn't one thing. It's two. These things are joined at the hip.

[00:05:10] And being able to kind of sit with a client in such a way where there's more of this focus on the wholeness that makes you human. Right? Victory and defeat. Triumph and disaster. Love and loss. It's one thing. Yeah?

[00:05:32] I always sit with a client with this overarching assumption that they are whole and they are capable. That strikes on such an extremely important point in terms of the neurobiology of what's happening in the brain. You have what's called a limbic system. You have, you know, what people will refer to as the lizard brain, the animal brain.

[00:05:58] That is that impulsive mind that shoots out thoughts, that shoots out emotional reactions to things. That mind learns to interact with the world through creating order. Just like you said, you know, the word confidence or the word worth has zero inherent meaning without the polar opposite.

[00:06:21] And so when the mind does that, it creates an order in a person's environment between confidence and doubt. But what I don't think is as widely recognized is that is how the mind orders information. And that is how the mind presents us that ordered information. Tiger is standing over that shot. And the mind, you know, doesn't say you might shank this out of bounds. The mind says you're going to shank this out of bounds. And that's why things like defusing are so important.

[00:06:50] I just had the thought that I'm going to shank it out of bounds. And you rely on that conscious self, that frontal lobe, that upper cortex, the more evolved parts of our brains to put that very dichotomous message into the appropriate context. No, it's not that I'm going to shank it out of bounds. It's that that is a possibility on this shot. Therefore, I'm going to take an extra step here to try to make sure I don't, you know, engage with that possibility.

[00:07:20] But that piece of how our brains use language, one part, the mind being dichotomous or ordering based on these polar opposites and presenting us information like that, which if you think about the political divisiveness being all red or all blue on every single issue, it starts to make sense from an RFT perspective. Because people's minds are ordering what they believe.

[00:07:48] But ultimately, we've got to let that conscious part of us create the balance of that seesaw in order to be able to appropriately appraise the information that comes from our minds. We learn this experience as an opposition. As they're learned that way, they then come as a pair. Right. And the difficulties tend to arise when we get stuck in this comparison with what we're experiencing compared to what we think we should be experiencing.

[00:08:17] So just looping back to your example of Rory for a second. I'd love Rory to get an STD test. Yeah. Really invite him to go and get himself tested for STDs. With the context around that, please don't clip that and put that on YouTube shorts, right? That's all the short is going to be. Rory needs to be tested for his socially transmitted dogmas. And they are rife in sports psychology and pop psychology. They're rife.

[00:08:45] The thing when we're stuck in this kind of narrowing down of the space in which we can perform, you know, eventually we end up in a place that's something like the size of a postage stamp. Okay. And the next thing that I see happening with clients is the yips. They get squeezed down, squeezed down, squeezed down to this little place in which performance can happen.

[00:09:09] And then there's a tipping point where a part of them metaphorically, let's say they're driving through life and performance, hands on the steering wheel. Metaphorically, a part of them says no more and it pulls the handbrake. Almost as if there's like a passenger. And I do lots and lots of work in the yips now. Currently write a book, writing a book on it.

[00:09:32] We're co-authoring with Dr. Jorge Aguilar, which I think is going to seriously up level our thinking around what the yips is and how we start to unwind like the issues and start to kind of broaden out the space in which people get to play. I've got a great personal story on the yips that relates to this very philosophy over the summer. I've worked my way down to somewhere between a one and a two handicap over the last 10 years of playing golf.

[00:10:02] And my older brother started playing just in the last couple of years. So he's about a 25 and he invited me to play in his member guest tournament at his country club. We're in the eighth flight out of 10 because we got a combined handicap is pretty high. And I am by far the lowest handicap in that flight, which automatically starts invading that, you know, you're supposed to be the one that plays well. You have to play really well because everybody else is getting strokes on you.

[00:10:30] And so first day went fine. Second day comes around, just like you've talked about. I'm on the range. I feel great. I feel absolutely great. And then I hit a shank and then I hit another shank and then I hit another shank. The yips start to emerge. I go and I hit my first shot, which is a little dog leg left. And there's a bunker that you have to clear.

[00:10:59] That's about 210 yards, but you can't hit driver because it's fairway runs out and there's trees. So I hit a hybrid and it plugs right up close to the lip of that bunker to where there's no way I'm getting to the green. My round starts like that. I end up shooting a 101 as a one and a half handicap. Somehow, some way, my brother plays pretty well. He gets a lot of strokes. We lucked out.

[00:11:28] Somebody didn't show up for a two-man team for half of one of the matches. And somehow, we make the shootout. We win our flight, which is the tightest flight of any of them. And we're eating in the clubhouse before the shootout starts. And I'm just hearing other people talk about the one handicap who shot 101, not knowing that I'm right next to them. Right?

[00:11:55] And mentally, I am freaking out because I know I've got to go back out there and hit a tee shot with probably 75, close to 100 people watching that I don't know. They just know me as the one handicap who shot 101. And I sat there and I had about 30 minutes and I said, you know what? I need to do my own mental work with this. And I made room for what had happened. I found the humor in it.

[00:12:22] And I went out to the range and I said, you know what? I need to hit a few good shots. I know I'm capable of it. And was able to clear that headspace, make room for the extreme anxiety and nervousness that I felt on that first tee in a four-hole shootout. And out of 13 teams, I piped it right down the middle of the fairway. My brother and I ended up getting to the final two of the shootout.

[00:12:47] But it was one of those kind of telling tales that, you know what? It doesn't matter what has already happened. What matters is making room for that stuff and finding a way to move forward with that little eye as part of the bigger eye. Two weeks later, I play in my club championship and shoot a 72-73 to win the first flight of my club championship.

[00:13:13] It is amazing the ups and downs that you will ride in golf, that you will ride in life. And so much of the mental part is making room for all of those ups and downs. Like really well said. And I love the kind of the catching of this as a bit of a process because it felt like what I was hearing was this kind of space around you were shrinking down and constricting. You were getting more and more in your head around this.

[00:13:43] And in that little piece of being able to almost hear people talking about you without realizing that you were in their presence, you managed to find this little space of, you know what? Actually, there's some humor here. And all of a sudden, I could almost see the door opening and some fresh air coming in. Right? There was almost this kind of opening up kind of process.

[00:14:06] You know, and that willingness you spoke about to have that experience, have the, you know, the anxiety must have been off the charts. Right? And the willingness to have that, that's such a key shift here. When historical, this flat earthers approach, trying to make moves, let's say working with you on the range to really try and reduce that down, actually consumes more of your attention.

[00:14:32] What I use as a, in working with the Yips is this kind of distinction that we have two ends of the scale here. So if I use this metaphor of driving the car, so kind of like passengers in the car, thoughts and feelings are like the passengers. But we've also got this kind of younger passenger that will pull the handbrake. This is like the Yips type experience where the car kind of jolts a lot. And this kind of bad driving and ace driving distinction.

[00:15:01] So bad driving stands for blind spots. For a load of this stuff is happening outside of awareness. Yeah. Avoidance. Yeah. So let's say you were going to the range in the service of trying to get rid of the anxiety, trying to not shank a ball. Right? Which now you're just plugging into the wall socket of amplification of those things. Right. Right. Don't think about the coffee cup. Whatever you do not think about this coffee cup.

[00:15:30] And the D stands for distraction. So doing anything and everything to try and distract your way through this. And what that bad driving creates metaphorically is the situation where if you're driving the car, you try and distract those drivers. Right? There's an eagle. Drive, drive, drive, drive, drive, drive. Right? And people do this. They try and sing a song in their head. They try and count backwards from 50. They try and snap a rubber band every time a negative thought comes up. You might get away with that. Like the passengers might be like, oh, where, where, where?

[00:16:00] Yeah. And you might be able to drive for a little bit. And you're like, look, it's working. It's working. It's working. But those passengers, they catch on. Right? They tune into this and they realize the game is being played pretty quickly. And of course, from their perspective, what they're seeing in these bad driving processes is someone. Does that look like someone who can be trusted behind the wheel? Doesn't to me. Like if I was in that car, I'd be pulling the frigging handbrake. Yeah?

[00:16:27] If I had someone driving, if there's something really precious to me on board, I see someone who has no idea of what's in their blind spots. So they're just kind of swerving all over the place. If they're trying to avoid all types of situations, like who's watching? Which other cars are? Who's around me? Who's watching? And they're trying to distract everyone that's in the car. I'm going to be ripping that handbrake. The juxtaposed kind of other end of the spectrum that's more liberatory is ace driving.

[00:16:55] So acknowledging, which is one of those moves you made, right? He should have been. He'd like anxieties here. It's right here. Okay? Bringing that stuff out of the blind spots and into your main beams. So we're really acknowledging what's going on. The C stands for connecting and the E engaging. So can we connect to the moment we're in? Like, can we connect to what we're trying to do? What's the task in front of us? Can we connect to those who matter? Right? Sixth breath kind of exercise.

[00:17:25] Can we connect to our values around this? You see how kind of built into that connection is almost this willingness piece? So we're bringing stuff out of the blind spots. We're getting more connected to it. We're building willingness, right? And then the final one is engaging. Okay. What does a great swing feel like? I'm back on the tee. I've got all these people, you know, with these preconceived ideas of this guy's a one handicapper and this ball could go between his legs. And they're all getting ready to film this. And, you know, this is going to be great.

[00:17:54] He's not a real one handicap. Yeah, exactly. He's got a fake handicap. Yeah. Where did you get? Did you get that handicap from the Donald Trump kind of school of golf kind of thing? Right? You know, so there's all of that stuff and we're making room. We're being willing to have that stuff as well and then engaging. Okay. Awesome. What does a great swing feel like? You know, if you've been shanking the ball, probably more effective to aim for the toe of the club. You with me? Yeah.

[00:18:20] So we're really starting to get our eyes back on the road, hold onto the steering wheel. This is what great driving looks like. And then the paradox within this is that as you start to drive in ways that are more trustworthy, you become more trustworthy. Like a really curious thing. Like, you know, yeah, anxiety still shows up, but, you know, you just get less bothered by it. You become more willing.

[00:18:46] One of the curious things that I've had in regards to public speaking, particularly presenting at world conferences and stuff like this is, yeah, like, does that stuff will show up? Do the passengers all have a lot to say? Yeah, of course they do. Yeah. Yeah. And they're beginning to trust me a little bit. Yeah. Because I've showed them over and over again that I can drive in ways that are trustworthy. They strive. Yeah. So it's curious how that relationship with those experiences can change quite a lot.

[00:19:17] It triggered my mind to bring up a little bit of a pivot in the conversation. The ACEs that, you know, we talk about in psychiatry, adverse childhood experiences, something that I see, and it's not just really successful professional athletes. This also exists within artists, whether that be musical art or drawing art.

[00:19:40] There seems to be a predisposition or a more representative faction of people who have dealt with pretty significant traumas in their lives that make it to the top. It's almost like a yin-yang of viewing that trauma. When you act trained, you see that in a little bit different lens. For example, you know, I think Tiger's dad was pretty hard on him.

[00:20:08] I think he probably made Tiger feel like he was never really good enough. And that probably led to some loneliness, probably led to some isolation and some difficult times internally for Tiger. But it also probably inherently relates to his internal motivation to be better. I love that yin-yang symbol because it's so representative of the things that exist within

[00:20:35] each of us that the positive characteristics or what we might consider positive in terms of motivation are so integrally tied to the negative parts of our experience as well. And I think social media and some of the things we see in the outside world make it seem like everything is positive for others. But I try to really educate my patients that you cannot separate these two from each other.

[00:21:05] You need to recognize them as one in the same and you cannot have one without the other. What do you think or what have you seen in terms of trauma and its relationship with the ability to be great? Yeah, it's a great question and a fascinating question. I'm not sure necessarily if we have time to really do a deep dive on it. But first and foremost, when I'm sat with clients, you know, sporting trauma, and we could call this kind of lower T as opposed to like a capital T trauma.

[00:21:35] So sporting trauma is something that, you know, you play golf longer than five minutes and you're going to experience some of these things, right? Whether they be horrendously embarrassing moments or letting feeling like you're letting other people down or, you know, missing the part, messing up the final hole, you know, whatever it is, you know, those experiences can be traumatic and they stay with you for sure. Now, when I'm sat with clients, number one, recognizing what is within my kind of ethical

[00:22:02] scope is kind of really important to just kind of mention before I move into this topic. So anything that where Jorge needs to be brought in, sports psychiatrist who's, you know, we've got a good kind of multidisciplinary kind of approach with regards to this, just in case anything comes up. But certainly sitting with clients that have experiences of this, like sporting trauma, lower

[00:22:27] T trauma, and interesting question as it pertains to motivation, because as you said, it can, it can really drive, particularly when there have been caregivers or coaches involved, you know, kind of doling out the really harsh criticism. And a lot of that stuff can get internalized. And then we kind of hear this voice that's like almost like a very harsh coach that's constantly whipping us into like a behavior, carrot and stick style, and it's all stick.

[00:22:56] So undoubtedly that can shape behavior and we can get lots and lots of behaving kind of through practice and stuff where we've become highly, highly competent. But those motivations that have been driving those behaviors often produce this sense of when athletes get there, you know, to the goal, to the green jacket, you know, to the handicap they want to get to, to the winning of the club championship, whatever it is that they've

[00:23:25] been whipping themselves towards, they get there and there's very often this sense of emptiness. You know, once that goal has been achieved, there's this hollowness to the experience, right? They still don't feel good enough, right? It doesn't make them automatically worthy internally. Yeah. Yes. They've been operating, if you like, under this kind of verbal rule, the self-instruction

[00:23:52] of when, then this kind of conditional frame, like when I achieve the thing, then I will feel whole and complete and it doesn't happen. And we've seen this in players' careers, right? They've reached the thing and then we never hear from them again, or they have this huge drop off in their career, or they disappear out of the public eye within 12 months. So, you know, I think this really speaks to the values piece within ACT.

[00:24:19] Values very often are nested within this kind of social setting. I've never really heard someone speak about values that hasn't contained some kind of deep yearning to connect and be part of like a bigger kind of eye, a bigger group, right? Like someone within who wrote about values very famously once said like, you know, nobody climbed Everest for the selfie. There's this kind of, there's this deep meaning and deep connection, whether that be, you know,

[00:24:48] for the hospital they were raising money for or the deep kind of personal journey. And this is where the kind of the values work within ACT is something that I just like adore, like really connecting people to these very self-chosen, but also nourishing behaviors. It's not often spoken about within the self-disciplined kind of literature, but I often see that there's this other seat at the table in that conversation.

[00:25:18] And it's this invitation, like what if these behaviors that you're going to engage in and you're going to navigate and it's going to have you up at six in the morning and doing the training and the ice bathing and the bloodied socks or whatever it is, if you're running the marathon, like what if self-kindness also had a seat at that table? That's really never spoken about in that literature, in that conversation. But I think it has some very, very interesting things to say.

[00:25:46] Like what about the hardest things that you are willing to face also have underneath them, like a deeply hard sense of who you want to be in the world, how you want to move in the world, things that you would like to pass down to others? As a personal example, I've got a Peloton four feet to my right.

[00:26:10] And I ride that thing balls out, like I'm like sweating blood when I ride that thing. You know, at face value, you could look at that and you could look at the harshness within that, trying to hit the numbers and kind of the pursuing of the goals. But within that, I'm deeply connected to like showing my two boys what it's like to take

[00:26:37] care of yourself and knowing that what they witness will not just be absorbed by them, but it will be passed down and it will be passed down. So what if this behavior of really taking care of myself is fell by those who may never know my name? That's powerful. But the curious thing about that is I'm being shaped. My behavior is being shaped by those who don't even exist yet.

[00:27:06] And it all reflects and reinforces back onto yourself as well. I mean, it's empowering to see your kids pick up on your positive habits and then it is a, you know, a positive cycle, right? Or a positive feedback loop. Yeah. Before we do run out of time, I do want to bring up that example we talked about before with Darius Washington and use it so that you can mention the importance of engaging with

[00:27:36] the process over trying to engage with your desired outcome. Um, so just as a background, Darius Washington Jr. is somebody who is relevant to my personal life because when I was in high school, a big University of Louisville college basketball fan and the setting is the Conference USA championship game. Louisville was already going to get into the NCAA tournament, but Memphis is the other team that they're playing in that final game.

[00:28:04] The only way Memphis is getting into the NCAA tournament is if they win that game. It comes down to the end of the game. And actually one of the Louisville players who was nine for nine on the season, only shooting his 10th free throw the whole year. He misses his 10th free throw six seconds left. One of the best players in the country at the time, Darius Washington Jr. gets the ball, goes down the court, elevates for a three pointer with time running out.

[00:28:32] The team is down to he's going for the win and he gets fouled. So he gets three free throw shots. And the free throw line in basketball is a lot more like golf than any other aspect of basketball because the games that are more fast paced leave a little bit less room for the mind to invade with those intrusive thoughts. But at the free throw line, especially when there's no time on the clock, nobody else is

[00:29:02] on the free throw line and you have tens of thousands of screaming fans waiting to see what the outcome will be. And he makes the first free throw. So Darius Washington has a chance to send Memphis to the NCAA tournament if he makes the remaining two free throws or at least send the game into overtime if he just makes one free throw.

[00:29:26] Washington proceeds to miss the second free throw and then he misses the third and you just see him drop to the floor at that free throw line in absolute despair. The field and a lot of the psychology is moving towards process over outcome. But how do you try to instill that idea? And how do you try to instill those specific ways to maintain that focus on that process

[00:29:55] over that outcome? Yeah, I don't. I think there's a little kind of kind of trap like within that in and of itself where this idea of emphasizing the process can over outcome can actually kind of turn inside out on itself. And then we start tracking whether I'm in the process as an outcome.

[00:30:20] When we perform, there are bear traps everywhere and the mind can take anything and turn it into another trap. So I'm very cautious of that. I'm very cautious of that. And what I might offer up instead, how can we create a context in which we still retain access to our best stuff? I think that's the question. How can we create that context?

[00:30:44] Well, I would be very curious if Darius had the access to those six simple breath. You with me? Absolutely. Can you feel the contextual shift there? Whatever happens in the next three minutes will not define who I am. There's a certain amount of willingness kind of is built up into exercise.

[00:31:11] And I'm not saying this is the best exercise that sports psychology has ever seen. Everyone should be doing this expression all the time. I'm not saying that. I'm not saying that at all. Because that gets to shifting to the outcome, right? If I just do these breaths, then I'll get the outcome I want. Correct. Correct. I'm very interested in tailoring interventions for clients that are bespoke, that are deeply

[00:31:38] felt and embodied in the context of their life that really helps them to shift from the constricting effects of aversive control. You know, things that really narrow us down, things that constrict our ability to behave. And I'm interested for this client in this situation with this history, like very much a one by one type process.

[00:32:03] I'm interested in what moves can we make that help us be liberated from that constriction. And I've just found that really treating the individual as the individual, as opposed to these kind of, this is what psychology has to say, and then drop it down onto everyone. But treating the individual as the individual and knowing what liberates them in their context. So I don't know. I'm very happy to say that. Yeah.

[00:32:32] But I'd also say, and I would like to know, I would like to know for anyone listening to this right here, right now, I would be very curious about what could liberate you in your life. What can liberate your next step after finishing this podcast? You know, there are certain conversations around limitations, and I'm just not interested in those conversations. I'm interested in conversations around possibility, like open universe.

[00:33:01] I think that all of this conversation speaks to the importance of things like mindfulness and meditation, not as a way to relax, not as a way to clear my mind, as a way to get better understanding and more willingness and more acceptance of what's happening internally. Not to say, I'm going to sit here and I'm going to do my six breaths and my mind is never

[00:33:27] going to wander, but to be able to gently and non-judgmentally notice when my mind is wandering and gently bring it back to this moment, this exercise, this process that I'm engaging in. Because the more that any individual is able to do that, the better they are going to be able to commit back to what they're engaging in, in that moment.

[00:33:53] Whether it's golf, whether it's their relationship with their wife or their kids or their friends, it's not about being good at meditation. It's about gently bringing your mind back, noticing where you go, enhancing your understanding of your own internal story, not as the final judge of who you are, but to provide the contextual clues moving forward to understand your tendencies.

[00:34:18] My great friend and colleague, Billy Ryan, has this beautiful kind of description of mindfulness and where we can go so wrong with it. Like mindful, right? It's not about this kind of full of content. Like being mindful is about being full of awareness. That's what we're training. And we're bringing our attention to bear in such a way that has this kind of illuminatory effect.

[00:34:47] It kind of illuminates all different parts of our experience. Like we're full of awareness. And from that place, that's where we can be more intentional about our next step. Absolutely. Thank you so much for coming on. It has been an absolute pleasure. I really look forward to hopefully engaging in some way with you in the future. I love your understanding of ACT and what you're doing with it and how you're promoting

[00:35:13] it and adding, like I think most people in that community do, adding your specific touches and flavor. Because I think through the multitude of different experiences that we each have, we all have the ability to add to it. That's a beautiful thing about ACT. I love Steve Hayes talking about moving the world forward through ACT. I think that's a common theme that I see amongst people who not just teach it, but practice it themselves. It's been an absolute blast. I've loved this conversation.

[00:35:42] I really appreciate the invitation to come on and talk about stuff that I so clearly get excited about talking about. So yeah, much, much appreciation for the invite. Same here. It's a great jumping off point at the beginning of my day. So thanks again and look forward to talking to you again in the future. Awesome. I appreciate it. All right. Take it easy, Trevor. All right. Disclaimer. This podcast is for informational purposes only. The information provided in this podcast and related materials are meant only to educate. This information is not intended as a substitute for professional medical advice.

[00:36:11] While I am a medical doctor and many of my guests have extensive medical training and experience, nothing stated in this podcast nor materials related to this podcast, including recommended websites, texts, graphics, images, or any other materials should be treated as a substitute for professional medical or psychological advice, diagnosis, or treatment. All listeners should consult with a medical professional, licensed mental health provider, or other healthcare provider if seeking medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Or put more simply, if you need help like this guy, call your own doctor. Thanks again for watching and or listening.

[00:36:39] If you're passionate about the subjects that I discuss on the channel, do me a favor and like, comment, subscribe, do whatever you can to make your voice heard that these are problems that must be addressed in our society. If you have any questions, comments, or concerns, I want to hear them. Feel free to reach out on social media or email us at renegadesyke at gmail.com.

[00:37:09] And if you'd like to be a guest of the show, or you have a connection to somebody that you think would be a good guest, let us know. Thanks again for listening. PB about is a good video for listening.